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Post by midniterider on Feb 28, 2013 11:01:02 GMT -5
Greetings Members of 53rd Fast Attack Company,
Let me start off by stating:
THIS DOES NOT AND WILL NOT EFFECT THE 53RD FAST ATTACK COMPANY IN ANY WAY.
The 501st Legion detachment, BLIZZARD FORCE, is interested in bringing and moving the Galactic Marines and Snow Scouts into their detachment as "official" costumes. This discussion has been tossed around in the past, however, never seriously investigated. As a "duo" member with both the GM and TS designations, and a member of Command Staff at Blizzard Force and 53rd Fast Attack Company (Galactic Marines), I feel it is time for the Galactic Marines to have a new home. A home where we are not a small, tiny "cog" or afterthought in a GIGANTIC organization. At this time the clonetrooper detachment is way TOO BIG, and there is a rediculous number of clone armor variants...literally new ones every week with the Clone Wars series. There are currently (30) approved Galactic Marines within the 501st Legion, with only (3) members (including myself) with both designations (GM and TS). One can clearly see that the Galactic Marine is the predecessor (clone version) to the Snowtrooper, just as in the case with the Kashyyyk Troopers being the predecessor (clone version) for the Biker Scouts. One of the themes behind our BLIZZARD FORCE detachment is cold weather, snow laden characters, training, or assault. Is it not?
Snowtroopers, Commanders, and the Wampa, all canon characters with their movie scenes set on snow and\ ice terrain. Correct?
The Star Wars Visual Dictionary states that a Snowtrooper is a "specialized trooper" (or in the case of the original Kenner action figure: Stormtrooper w/ Hoth Cold Weather Gear). Well the Galactic Marines were canon characters, specialized troopers, and cold assault troopers with their movie scene set on the icy terrain and snow blowing planet of Mygeeto (home base of the Separatist Banking Clan). Most Lucasfilm related material concerning the GM refer to them as "Cold Assualt" trooper.
Yet another reference to the Galactic Marines specializing and serving in come weather conditions: Dark Horse Comics - Star Wars: Republic #79
Here is a synopsis of the storyline. "The Clone Wars are over. The Galactic Republic army is defeated, and Order 66 has eliminated most of the Jedi or forced them into hiding. Wild rumors are spreading that the Jedi tried to overthrow the government and cannot be trusted. On the planet Toola in the Outer Rim, Commander Keller is hunting down two fugitive Jedi who survived Order 66. With the help of a Galactic Marine, Keller tracks them through the deep snow as they head toward Ithaqua Station." It has been stated that the GM is a clone and that may be true, however, their armor and appearance look nothing like the clones. There are a lot of armor, character, and costume similarities including:
Helmet (same style although a little longer in the back of GM) Small dimension eyes / lenses ( 2 "eyes" / no visor or "T" bar). Face shroud / cowl Chest armor (same as Snowtrooper but no front indentation for greeblies) Forearm armor Hand plates Backpacks (both characters wear backpacks) Cod piece ? (This is still under review and discussion whether GM has one) Soft pants Knee Armor
The point was also brought up about members going to our website for information. It would be no different here at Blizzard Force, except the GM's would be a part if a more intimate setting, where we can assist with awareness and promotion. There are lots of opportunities. Perhaps existing Galactic Marines may look into building Snowtroopers and joining those with the "duo." And the availability of GM armor and components is at its best, certainly easier than a commander, and perhaps the Snowtrooper. And I can attest, this costume gets shown a lot of interest.
Bottom line is a move to Blizzard Force would be the right thing to do from many vantage points:
1. Bring more awareness and support to the costume. 2. Adds another cold weather trooper to that detachment. 3. Increase the Blizzard Force membership. 4. Provide more promotional opportunities.
The Clonetrooper "umbrella" is WAY TOO BIG. Why did they allow the Kashyyyk Troopers to go to Pathfinders. Weren't they clones? If you think about the characters, technically the Republic Commandos should go to Special Ops, for they were an elite team of commandos that performed special missions. What this will allow is for not only the GM's to have a place of their own, but they won't feel as overwhelmed or insignificant to the rest of the detachment they'd fall under. Again, this is just under an "investigative" stage, we are looking at gaining support first, before moving onto deeper discussions. If we gain the support of the majority, then we will continue the process. If we do not receive sufficient support, the disussion is over and done.
Please take the time to respond with your opinion and ideas. Would like to hear your thoughts.
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Post by danrodjr on Feb 28, 2013 15:55:46 GMT -5
I am not sure about with joining the Blizzard Force, we are Clones not snow troopers, big difference, after the clone wars the GM's changed their armor to the TK armor and only wore the GM armor for special events and such. The GM armor is not completely a cold weather armor, it is special armor for several harsh environments, not just cold weather like the snow trooper, no fleece in this suit, the GM is an elite trooper, maybe the GM should be part of special ops!!!! Just something to think about.
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Post by heatshock on Feb 28, 2013 16:30:32 GMT -5
take it from a trooper who has been involved in this move. The kashyyyk Trooper was lost to bikerscout.net A bad move IMHO. (1) different ethos - we in the clone world are very much used to self building. And self building to a very high standard (2) we are used to dissecting CGI pictures and taking into account the inconsistencies of CGI, 3D renders and multiple sources. (3) DL of BSN have typically been TB, not CBs. SImple logistics. But it also means the DL's have no real interest in the clone issues (4) lots of our vendors are clone based eg DC15's, boots, helmets, detail parts eg straps, greebs etc. (5) I am a mod over on BSN. Both the moderators have tried to get CB specific merch off teh ground without success. Neither the merch officer nor DL are particularly fussed abt the CBs which is a shame. I am currently undergoing quite a time cos of misunderstanding of the CGI issue and CRL on BSN forum.bikerscout.net/index.php?showtopic=10500if we move anywhere, I would favour a move back to CT.net there arent too many. we would be back where we naturally belong. Nate
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Post by Krazy Ivan on Feb 28, 2013 17:03:33 GMT -5
Just wanted to say this is a serious issue for us GM's that needs some serious thought, because if we end up in the wrong detachment it will be hard to go back and we could a see a decline in interest for GM's all together. We need a detachment that will let us grow and push GM's to all who want hear.
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Post by midniterider on Feb 28, 2013 19:06:46 GMT -5
WOW!! This is great! I want to thank everyone for their participation and all the opinions. This is what we were hoping for, a serious discussion. Now before I continue, please allow me to reiterate that this is in an investigative stage. We are getting the opinions of all approved GM's and others building the costume first to gauge the majority opinion. No sense in taking the serious BIG steps if there is no support behind it. take it from a trooper who has been involved in this move. The kashyyyk Trooper was lost to bikerscout.net A bad move IMHO. (1) different ethos - we in the clone world are very much used to self building. And self building to a very high standard (2) we are used to dissecting CGI pictueres and taking into account the inconsistencies of CGI, 3D renders and multiple sources. (3) DL of BSN have typically been TB, not CBs. SImple logistics. But it also means the DL's have no real interest in the clone issues (4) lots of our vendors are clone based eg DC15's, boots, helmets, detail parts eg straps, greebs etc. (5) I am a mod over on BSN. Both the moderators have tried to get CB specific merch off teh ground without success. Neither the merch officer nor DL are particularly fussed abt the CBs which is a shame. I am currently undergoing quite a time cos of misunderstanding of the CGI issue and CRL on BSN forum.bikerscout.net/index.php?showtopic=10500if we move anywhere, I would favour a move back to CT.net there arent too many. we would be back where we naturally belong. Nate Nathan, I understand where you are coming from and I have seen what has happened with the Kashyyyk Troopers over at Pathfinders. I have seen this with my brother, CB-5761, an even witnessed the complete snubbing that occurred at Celebration VI. I can personally assure you that WILL NOT happen at Blizzard Force! For those you who may not know, I was nominated for the DL position and I ran during the election. Unfortunately, I did not win, BUT my opponent requested my services as the XO of the detachment. I accepted the position. We have been communicating for hours, going over ideas and new programs we are going to implement. There would be no sub-forum for the Galactic Marines. The Galactic Marine category or threads would be right on the main site, with Snowtroopers, Snowtrooper Commander, and the Wampa. There would be a sub-forum link to the 53rd FAC for assistance and information. We are a close knit group that takes into consideration all the costumes, including the rare Wampa. And furthermore, I can also attest that there is no political reasoning behind this, there is no power struggle and / or someone trying to gain an upper hand. Just wanted to say this is a serious issue for us GM's that needs some serious thought, because if we end up in the wrong detachment it will be hard to go back and we could a see a decline in interest for GM's all together. We need a detachment that will let us grow and push GM's to all who want hear. Glenn you being up good points too. This is serious "issue" or discussion, and that is why we are approaching it in steps. I have worked very hard to advertise and promote the Galactic Marine through logos and merchandise offered, produced, and sent off to troopers. I first approached the DL at CTN (someone people may know -- Kris Kuipers) about Official 501st GM merchandise and was pretty much pushed aside. Heck, I even tried to start our own detachment ( which was the original vision of the founder of this group, it is all posted up here on the boards), but experienced a hard time. Was told that the numbers had to increase, despite having the support and minimum number of approved troopers). Well i was the #11 Galactic Marine in the Legion, and I have witnessed the growth of this costume to where you are now, in the verge of #31 and #32. To this day, how much has the CTN promoted the Galactic Marine? Has anyone ever seen an official 501st Galactic Marine piece of merchandise? Funny, the Republic Commandos were represented on the 4th CTN challenge coin. With the success if the Clone Wars animated series, the CTN is growing bigger and bigger, and will soon be unsustainable. There are just TOO many variants out there. The Galactic Marine looks more like a Snowtrooper than a Clonetrooper. The only " common" parts pf the armor is the forearms and biceps. The purpose of a detachment is to increase awareness and promote a costume and character. I do not see this happening at CTN. Believe it or not, the GM armor is more readily available than Snowtrooper and Commander armor. This is one (1) problem Blizzard For e is dealing with. This opens the door for GM's. And perhaps you may see an increase in members going for the "duo".
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Post by heatshock on Feb 28, 2013 22:09:16 GMT -5
thats the problem I think - its ok whilst you have someone sympathetic to the GM. Which you are at the moment. Once we lose you, theres no guarantee it will stay that way.
I know Dave pretty well on CT.net, the current DL and I can assure you that the GM agenda can be pushed well forward. 2 really good GM builds in recent history - aside from you pioneers are Gatz-skis and EVO's. Both tbh surf on the ct.net forums a lot more.
From a vendor point of view - I get more hits off CT.net than on 53rd. What we need is an active staff. 2 years ago - this place was pretty dead - for what ever reason, it doesnt really matter. we had pinned threads to people who actually FAILED to complete runs.
I am not saying moving to ct.net is any better, but its a more natural state. Now that we are a high enough number, it will be a viable voice to make change.
aside from shared parts, theres also the shared vendors - SB, me, WC etc, who commonly surf CT.net. I havent included RKD as he seems comfortable in both forums.
Top choice? I would say stay here and make it more active. 2nd choice - a move back to CT.net. Its isnt so much the locale, its the community. We have a much more active staff now, and mods. We need to keep the board more up-to-date etc.
my experience on BSN is also based as a staff member. Without my other active staff members, I really wouldnt be able to survive over there. Bad move to begin with, tried to reverse and it seems near impossible. Lets not make the same mistake with GMs please!!!!
this is of course only MHO.
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Post by Krazy Ivan on Mar 1, 2013 0:08:11 GMT -5
I think we need to put armor makers and Vendors to one side for the moment and just look at the character itself and then try to decide the best home based on the GM charater.
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Post by Krazy Ivan on Mar 1, 2013 0:18:05 GMT -5
Found this little bit of info that may only add to the discussion,
Snowtroopers, also known as cold assault stormtroopers, were Imperial stormtroopers trained to operate in arctic climates. Some snowtroopers were deployed under Death Squadron's Blizzard Force, as well as other arctic forces. The snowtroopers were the successors of the clone cold assault troopers and the Galactic Marines under Clone Commanders Keller and Bacara, respectively, during the Clone Wars.
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Post by redkraytdragon on Mar 1, 2013 4:20:06 GMT -5
I really had to think about this for a bit before responding. I think if for the main reason to move to BF would be for higher exposure and for swelling numbers, I can see your point and would be all for it...we do seem to really get lost in the shuffle over on CT due to ALL the other clone variants (it seems to me anyway) and the activity as of late appears to have been quite lacking over there... as well as here (more than likely due to our small numbers). I haven't been over on BF, but I can imagine the activity there is a lot higher than it is here(?). Granted the TS is also an OT character and has been around a lot longer as well as a more established character and has had more time to gain a following. I understand that forum activity is more based on how busy people are, personal lives, etc and for some reason I've noticed that it seems to come and go in waves (much like pm's I receive on here and over there). From a vendor's point of view, I would love to see us go over there because it would more than likely be higher exposure for me personally (especially as I get closer to completing the entire kit) but that's also selfish thinking and I wouldn't want it to happen for that. As for the amounts of sales I get, I definitely get far more hits here than over on CT. HS also makes a good point about making it more active here before moving as a second choice, but my question is "how would we do that"? Not being critical, merely asking...I do think that's a great idea, but my notion is that if we were to become more active here, would it not have happened already? And if so, why has it not? For the purpose of gaining more members (which I'm assuming this discussion is primarily about), I think that those who already have TS costumes and have an interest in that style/type/look of costume, moving on to a GM would be more of a natural progression for that particular costumer and said person would have much more interest in doing so than a clone costumer (not saying that a clone costumer would not have an interest in doing a GM, but maybe not so much as someone who has already done a TS and is also familiar with the intricacies of said costume)..sorry for the long paragraph but I hope that all makes sense lol I guess what I'm really saying is that we also have to take into account the practical issues and not just 'in what category/forum does this costume belong?', but also 'where in the real costuming world would this character be the best fit to get the most membership and exposure?' I hope I didn't raise more questions than answers lol, and I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or another at the moment, just trying to be objective and explore what's best for us as a community All comments/arguments welcome!!
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Post by midniterider on Mar 1, 2013 8:16:08 GMT -5
CLARIFICATION!
THE 53RD FAST ATTACK COMPANY IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. [/size][/color] The 53rd FAC will remain here and continue its regular "operations", assisting troopers, and providing a great source of information. The Galactic Marine (GM) "move" is simply the designation and costume would be transferred and under the Blizzard Force umbrella ( in the 501st Legion only). While I had thought about transforming us into our own official detachment in the past, I have realized that we serve the 501st and Rebel Legions, in addition to other troopers who are independent (inthedark over in Ireland). In addition, although I follow the Legion rules for merchandise (as a safety), the 53rd FAC can offer their merchandise to anyone. If the 501st character move to Blizzard Force would take place, it will be set up EXACTLY THE WAY IT IS OVER AT CTN. At the top of the Galactic Marine category header will be a direct link here to the 53rd FAC for information and insight.
I know Dave Castenello very well. Not only is he in my Garrison, but only lives 1 hour away. But I can also tell you that he also has the webmaster task of our Garrison, in addition to the DL of CTN. I am not knocking the guy in anyway, but he already has a lot on his plate. And with all the CRL's that need to be complete or updated (last time I checked the GM CRL had big errors in it), the rapid growing variants do to the Clone Wars cartoon, and the overall MASSIVE membership, there will be little time or priority to promote us or work with us.
And allow we say I am not a sympathizer for the GM, I am a PROUD approved GM who worked diligently to make it right. I have worked hard for this character and costume, stuck my neck out several times, and have worked hard to advertise and promote it. Committed for the long haul? You bet, and I'm not stopping. I think the 501st character move to Blizzard Force wound give us more exposure to new people and prospective members. From a vendor point if view, it it going to make a difference if all the "group" or "GM builders" are at CTN or Blizzard Force? I would say NO. If a trooper wants to build a GM, he will locate the vendor no matter where. And as I stated earlier, the GM armor is now easier to aquire than Snowtrooper or Commander armor. New members of Blizzard Force may not want to wait 4-6 months for armor, and may see the GM is just as bad ass, and chose to build that instead. So again, the 53rd is not going anywhere, it will remain as is.
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Post by midniterider on Mar 1, 2013 16:49:18 GMT -5
Plus you have to add in the new trooping program they are starting, with a HUGE membership. Dave and his staff are going to have their hands full, and the promotion of the Galactic Marines is going to be a minor priority on their list.
Bottom line, I would rather be with a detachment that only currently has (3) costumes to promote and work on, rather than a group with 50+ costumes / variants.
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Post by danrodjr on Mar 2, 2013 2:51:53 GMT -5
Why can't we just post up and offer our armor to them on the BF page?
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Post by heatshock on Mar 2, 2013 5:25:14 GMT -5
Agreed. The GMs actually have their own home at the moment. Having done the hard work of creating that, moving back to another umbrella seems, odd.
But hey, as long as we have an active admin together, it shouldn't really matter.
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Post by danrodjr on Mar 2, 2013 6:23:51 GMT -5
Agreed. The GMs actually have their own home at the moment. Having done the hard work of creating that, moving back to another umbrella seems, odd. But hey, as long as we have an active admin together, it shouldn't really matter. Agreed!
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Post by journeymanprotector on Mar 2, 2013 11:55:11 GMT -5
Definitely a hard one to think about. IS the 53rd FAC official now for 501st? My understanding was that it was like The Dented Helmet, in that it's the place to be for our costume, has a lot of 501st members, but is actually not affiliated. Is that still the case?
I think our primary questions were well-worded already.
> Where will we get the best exposure to new members?
> Where will we get the best exposure to vendors?
Well, for vendors I agree CTN is probably the place to be. For members, I would guess BF would make the most sense but I don't know that for sure. Any evidence to support a surge in Kashyyyk troopers from them being on BSN? I tend to assume that people who are drawn to either the GM or TS would enjoy seeing posts about the other and be more apt to consider building that costume.
I always thought Mygeeto was having a nuclear winter, not a real one. Everything looked like ash. But I do see now that sources have decided it's frozen and that GMs were cold-assault. In which case it makes sense to put them under BF.
Ultimately though will it be like the Bounty Hunters Guild? Sure it's technically a detachment and 501st affiliated, but you're wasting your time if you aren't on TDH.
I'm on both sides of this one. But ultimately agree that people who want to find the info or vendors will do so. I don't see this as a huge misstep either way. If people are interested in GM, they'll figure it out.
Phil
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